I'm trying to mate a Matiz 5 speed with a F8B engine.
What I've figured out thus far:
The F8C engine has a different mounting face - only the two upper bolts line up. The lower two have been shifted.
The F8C block has been relieved to clear the starter motor (mounted behind the engine.
The matiz flywheel is a smaller diameter and has no timing marks
The driveshafts are different.
The mounting is totally different.
However, these problems are not insurmountable! Has anyone else attempted this and can they offer advice so that I (hopefully) don't make the same mistakes!
Also, my Mightyboy was originally automatic - is there mounting for the clutch pedal as standard (pivot shaft) or do I need to grab more than just a clutch pedal from a hatch?
AND! Does the Matiz head mount onto a F8B block? Sounds like it may be easier to just use the whole Matiz engine! Then we have the issue of the engine mounts.
Matiz 5 speed in Mightyboy
F8C head is configured differently to the F8B, the oil galleries and water jackets won't line up.
There's already been a Hatch with an F8C conversion on ebay so I'd say the job of doing a complete engine/box swap would be easier!
There's already been a Hatch with an F8C conversion on ebay so I'd say the job of doing a complete engine/box swap would be easier!
F8B EFI turbo - Three pots and a snail.
What about the plasic EFI manifold, does it line up with the F8B Ports?
Just wondering...
Just wondering...
Thanks Brayden regarding the incompatibility of the F8C head on a F8B block. That saved me a few dollars finding out the hard way!
Pity, as it has larger valves I believe. I was planning on getting the F8C head and doing some major work to the ports to extract some power from the little engine. I wasn't planning on using the F8C intake manifold as my port mods would not have lined up with them.
XRS - it seems the Matiz engine differs in many minor ways. From what I've seen, the water plumbing is quite different so I would expect the manifold may be quite different. If you're thinking of putting injection from a Matiz onto a F8B engine then I think you're making some work for yourself! The pickup is in the dissy and it is inline with the crank rather than run at right angles. Things are quite different in the area between the two engines. Also, there's the issue of tweaking the Matiz box - I've had a quick look at it and it is not too easy and I've got a bit of experience in this area! The design of the Matiz intake is optimised around getting the broadest torque from the little engine and good emissions.
Pity, as it has larger valves I believe. I was planning on getting the F8C head and doing some major work to the ports to extract some power from the little engine. I wasn't planning on using the F8C intake manifold as my port mods would not have lined up with them.
XRS - it seems the Matiz engine differs in many minor ways. From what I've seen, the water plumbing is quite different so I would expect the manifold may be quite different. If you're thinking of putting injection from a Matiz onto a F8B engine then I think you're making some work for yourself! The pickup is in the dissy and it is inline with the crank rather than run at right angles. Things are quite different in the area between the two engines. Also, there's the issue of tweaking the Matiz box - I've had a quick look at it and it is not too easy and I've got a bit of experience in this area! The design of the Matiz intake is optimised around getting the broadest torque from the little engine and good emissions.
Cool, it was out of curiosity more then anything.
Kartman is correct. The plastic intake manifold on the Matiz has no water jacket, so it won't be suitable for an F8B. 
F8B EFI turbo - Three pots and a snail.
Just drop the whole package in, much easier in the end. You also end up with an engine that's probably easier to get parts for, it's EFI and meets current emissions std's. I wish i had of seen the F8C in the mb.
Cheers
ToranaGuy
Cheers
ToranaGuy
It's update time MB Parts list! send part info to toranaguy74@optusnet.com.au|
After being in Mexico and returning, i've spent a little more time on my Mightyboy. Mating the Matiz gearbox to the F8B engine is not a trivial operation. I've drilled two new bolt holes in the block and machined Matiz flywheel so it fits on the F8B (It interferes with the read main seal flange outer edges and the sump pan). I also machined the top of one of the bolts on the water jacket cover as it interferes with the ring gear. So, now I have the gearbox mated to the engine! For the starter motor to fit (also from the Matiz) you need to get the angle grinder onto the block and grind away clearance for it as it sits on the engine side rather than the usual mightboy location of ontop of the gearbox. This presents two more problems - the water jacket connections!
Next stop - engine brackets and driveshafts.
Next stop - engine brackets and driveshafts.
Wow, that sounds like a LOT of effort to end up with the same final drive as the stock F8B four speed! 
Good on you for having a go mate! Best of luck with getting it finished off.
Good on you for having a go mate! Best of luck with getting it finished off.
F8B EFI turbo - Three pots and a snail.
Wow!
I also think it's too much effort, but if you really want to do it, go for it! Any pics of the work & mods thus far? I'd love to see them.
Cheers
ToranaGuy
I also think it's too much effort, but if you really want to do it, go for it! Any pics of the work & mods thus far? I'd love to see them.
Cheers
ToranaGuy
It's update time MB Parts list! send part info to toranaguy74@optusnet.com.au|
That is generally true, mowog. In the case of the Matiz the final drive in 5th is only a touch taller than the F8B 4 speeed. Why? I guess they couldn't sell a 4 speed box in the modern era, and having 5 gears makes it easier to keep the engine in its powerband.
F8B EFI turbo - Three pots and a snail.
Brayden - thanks for the motivational speech! The MB had a two speed auto that leaked, so anything has got to be better than that!
As for pictures - I'll have to get the camera out.
I had to get the nibbler onto the Matiz little tin clutch cover plate to make it fit. This was one of the easier modifications!
I'll be back at the wreckers to get the Matiz water jacket flange and hoses. The Matiz uses two hoses and has a junction bracket on the front of the gearbox rather than the MB steel tube and hoses. Then there's the heater hoses to contend with. Aye Aye Aye!
Driveshafts - I took the comments on board and looked at putting Matiz gb ends on MB driveshafts. The Matiz uses tripod style joints at the gearbox end - I did a quick measure of the shaft diameters - MB 22.0mm, Matiz 21.6mm. They really don't want me to do this do they? So, I'll have to look at both closely and see if I can turn a few tenths off the MB shafts.
The gearbox end cv joints are easy to pull apart - still haven't managed to disassemble the wheel ends - maybe I won't have to.
I've been thinking about electronic ignition and the easiest path (for me) for this. I had this thought of using the Commodore VN-VP triple coil module and making the dual ring pickup to fit the dissy. One side of the ign coils would be grounded as I have only three cylinders! These should be good to 12000rpm as they're only working half duty. For those who aren't aware of the Commodore triple coil ignitions - they have two detector rings - the outer one is spaced at 10degrees and the inner ring has different sized vanes so the electronics knows what cylinder to fire. I'm off to QLD next week so I'll have some time to ponder this.
As for pictures - I'll have to get the camera out.
I had to get the nibbler onto the Matiz little tin clutch cover plate to make it fit. This was one of the easier modifications!
I'll be back at the wreckers to get the Matiz water jacket flange and hoses. The Matiz uses two hoses and has a junction bracket on the front of the gearbox rather than the MB steel tube and hoses. Then there's the heater hoses to contend with. Aye Aye Aye!
Driveshafts - I took the comments on board and looked at putting Matiz gb ends on MB driveshafts. The Matiz uses tripod style joints at the gearbox end - I did a quick measure of the shaft diameters - MB 22.0mm, Matiz 21.6mm. They really don't want me to do this do they? So, I'll have to look at both closely and see if I can turn a few tenths off the MB shafts.
The gearbox end cv joints are easy to pull apart - still haven't managed to disassemble the wheel ends - maybe I won't have to.
I've been thinking about electronic ignition and the easiest path (for me) for this. I had this thought of using the Commodore VN-VP triple coil module and making the dual ring pickup to fit the dissy. One side of the ign coils would be grounded as I have only three cylinders! These should be good to 12000rpm as they're only working half duty. For those who aren't aware of the Commodore triple coil ignitions - they have two detector rings - the outer one is spaced at 10degrees and the inner ring has different sized vanes so the electronics knows what cylinder to fire. I'm off to QLD next week so I'll have some time to ponder this.
Mate it sounds like you've got the skills and the know-how to do big things, best of luck. Look forward to seeing the results.
F8B EFI turbo - Three pots and a snail.
I went on one f the Holden sites to see if this was possible and some knowledgeable people came back with some excellent but incomprehensible (to me) reasons it could not be done.
I will try to find the reference maybe you can spot a flaw in their argument.
I will try to find the reference maybe you can spot a flaw in their argument.