Oil leak - any early thoughts?

Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:03 pm

My Alto Works is just one problem after another, and I was wondering what your thoughts were on this one. To explain a little, the Alto Works twin-cam F6A has the timing belt on the driver's side and the alternator and a/c belts below it, the a/c belt being at the front of the car.

So after my most recent overheating problem, a couple of days later and I've noticed some drops of oil on the floor dripping down from the oil pan. Looked a little more closely and there looks to be oil on the front driver's side of the block. Can't exactly see the source but there was a fair film around with about 5-6 drops on the floor.

But then I looked at the a/c compressor pump thing and noticed that it had oil on the front side of it (that is, the side facing away from the block). Even if the oil had spurted out from a crack in the block, it would be very hard to cover this area which looks like a seam in the a/c pump. Was wondering if a bad pump could cause oil from the unit to spray all over when the engines running. Note that I couldn't see any oil spraying out when it was idling.

Could I check this by just taking the belt off the a/c compressor and running it without that belt. I know I won't have a/c doing that but it might allow me to rule something if it's not gonna be bad for the engine.

Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:43 pm

Problem sounds like a dud crankshaft seal. The oil leaks out and gets flung around by the belts. Remove your upper timing belt cover and check for oil residue on the timing belt.

Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:58 pm

Thanks for the advice. I"ll pull the timing cover tomorrow and report back with how it looks. Thing is, the accessory belts look dry with no oil on them.

What could have caused the crankshaft seal to blow (could the overheating have something to do with it), and how much of a swine is it to replace?

Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:03 am

ide be goin with brayden on this, the front crank seal seems to be a pretty common failure in these F motors.

is there oil pooling on your drivers side engine cradle? to confirm it degrease the area so theres no more oil around and run the engine for a while and watch where it drips from, saves you pulling anything apart.

i blew one of mine out completely when i accidently kinked the rocker cover breather hose :S (motor had decent blow-by)

to answer your question, its an engine out job to replace it!

Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:45 am

Psi_Wagon wrote:ide be goin with brayden on this, the front crank seal seems to be a pretty common failure in these F motors.

is there oil pooling on your drivers side engine cradle? to confirm it degrease the area so theres no more oil around and run the engine for a while and watch where it drips from, saves you pulling anything apart.

i blew one of mine out completely when i accidently kinked the rocker cover breather hose :S (motor had decent blow-by)

to answer your question, its an engine out job to replace it!

I'll be degreasing it either today or tomorrow. Got coolant lines coming tomorrow and I need to drain the coolant to get the timing belt cover off so might wait until then to check that part out.

And is it really an engine out job? You can't get the timing belt off and that sprocket and get to the seal with it still in there?

Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:20 pm

Good and bad news from an initial inspection with the front bumper off.

Good: I may have found the main oil leak on the car.
Bad: Looks like the crankshaft seal.

Good: The seal is a pretty cheap part to replace.
Bad: The whole engine might have to come out for the replacement.

And the timing belt only has just over 6,000km on it and it's gonna have to be replaced I think. Will confirm the situation tomorrow but it's not really looking spectacular.

I know this is probably a bad idea, but could one of those cans of oil stop-leak sort it out for a while?

Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:30 pm

"can of stop leak" what is that?????

It sounds like an additive to the oil.....personally I wouldn't use it!!! If you only have short distances to travel (motorbike riders are going to hate me for saying this, myself included!!!), just drive gently and top up the oil with a heavier grade oil.

you will probably have to take the engine out or tilt it by undoing a few engine mounts as there isn't enough room usually or an inspection port through the wheel arch to get an impact driver on the crank pulley bolt....trust me if you havn't taken the pulley off in a while it will more than likely be heat seized on...

if you can get a socket onto the bolt, get a long breaker bar put it in 1st gear hand brake on and someone stepping on the foot brake and try to undo it. if that fails you can jam the breaker bar to the under side of the car and turn the starter motor over, but I find this is a bit risky as you can round off the bolt very quickly!!! (the socket tends to jump around and not fit flush when you fire the start motor)

once you have the crank off it's just a matter of piercing and prying off the oil seal trying not to scratch the shaft surface and replacing with the new one and a bit of silicone sealant around the outside edges for good measure.

Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:36 pm

ike849 wrote:"can of stop leak" what is that?????

It sounds like an additive to the oil.....personally I wouldn't use it!!! If you only have short distances to travel (motorbike riders are going to hate me for saying this, myself included!!!), just drive gently and top up the oil with a heavier grade oil.

You need to remember it's an F6A twin cam turbo... you can't drive them gently!

Shit, i can't drive my F8B gently because there's so much grunt!

Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:43 pm

ike849 wrote:
you will probably have to take the engine out or tilt it by undoing a few engine mounts as there isn't enough room usually or an inspection port through the wheel arch to get an impact driver on the crank pulley bolt....trust me if you havn't taken the pulley off in a while it will more than likely be heat seized on...

Well the timing belt was changed only 7000km ago so the pulley shouldn't be too seized.

Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:38 pm

If the crank seal is the source then I'd strongly advise replacing the timing belt. Any oil penetration will cause the belt to lose teeth very quickly - and when that happens it will be REALLY bad news.

I'm not sure about how close the F6A sits to the driver's side of the engine bay, but if you can get the crank pulley off then you can replace the seal with the motor in situ.

I would go against ike's advice on using silicone sealant on the seal though. I've tried it and ended up with an almighty mess that meant I had to change the seal twice. Just oil the inside of the seal before you fit it and make sure the crank recess on the motor is cleaned with prepsol.

Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:59 am

Yeah, I'll do the timing belt too. Shame but it will have to be done. Will also get a rocker cover gasket as one of those may be leaking too.

Have just got to hope that this crankcase seal is 100% the problem now!

Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:34 am

Well things just get better and better! Went down to check my oil level this morning after driving last night and while I was at it I glanced at the coolant level. Found the expansion tank was pretty full of coolant. Pulled the radiator cap off and that was a little low. Poured it back from the tank into the reservoir and worked out I hadn't lost any coolant, but it had shifted into the expansion tank and not gone back when the engine cooled.

Radiator cap and thermostat are brand new. Does this sound like a headgasket will need replacing along with this seal (possibly all caused from my overheating episode)?

Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:52 pm

if you overheated the engine, it would have boiled/expanded the coolant and forced it into the overflow, thats what its there for

.

i doubt its a head gasket problem, but if you want to check, fill the radiator to the absolute top and run the car ( leave the cap off ), if it bubbles youve got some issues.

Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:58 pm

Psi_Wagon wrote:if you overheated the engine, it would have boiled/expanded the coolant and forced it into the overflow, thats what its there for .

i doubt its a head gasket problem, but if you want to check, fill the radiator to the absolute top and run the car ( leave the cap off ), if it bubbles youve got some issues.

No, I mean since then. I've filled the radiator and then got the coolant level to the max line in the reservoir. Then went out for a drive and got into a little boost but not really foot to the floor. Left it overnight after getting home and checked this morn to find it was at the top of the expansion tank, but the engine hadn't overheated on that drive.

Have filled the radiator to the top and idled while bleeding the coolant. After it finished bleeding there were no more bubbles. It would expand as it heated up but no bubbling.

Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:55 pm

I just did a head gasket on my turbo mazda...it didn't blow out the fire rings, but the paper blew out in the tiniest of spots to the front of the engine...hence i didn't get any bubbles in the radiator, white film in the oil, but had the same symptoms as you.... (block and head were machined flat less than 10,000km before the incident, which turns out was caused by detonation on cylinder 1)

I would drive normally and the reservoir would always fill up and overflow, but the car wasn't getting hot, fixed the problem by going to a MLS headgasket.

you could diagnose the problem by putting a pressure gauge'd radiator cap on and monitoring the pressures and by going to a local mechanic who can put a sensor into the radiator which detects exhaust/fuel residue which would indicate a blown headgasket...