f10a to k10a engine swap...

Suzuki van tech question and answers.

f10a to k10a engine swap...

Postby j-six » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:54 pm

hello guys, j-six here :)

mates, currently i have a super carry with an f10 in it. it's an 89 model, similar to brandon's suzuki pimped every.

i need to ask you a couple of questions prior to engine swap. considering that f10a is a carby and the k10a is a efi engine, and omg, i guess my '89 carry model has poorer power to weight ratio esp if my family rolls with me.

(sorry if noob/ newbie, hehehe)
1. what are the benefits of converting/transplanting from carby f10a to efi engine of k10a?
2. does anybody know whether the k10a is a good fit to the f10a of the super carry?
3. what items/ parts should i replace aside from the engine swap from a carby to an efi? does this include changing the fuel pump?
4. is it better if i should rewire my front panel info (example: fuel and coolant meter) and connect it to the ecu of the k10a? or maintain the wiring as is?
5. granted the successful conversion, would the fan-driven belt be maintained or would it go electrical already?

cheers,
j-six
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Postby gadj » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:14 pm

I can't answer everything but you will need to replace the fuel pump, EFI uses much higher pressure than carb. EFI will improve volumetric efficiency ie. better performance/power/torque/fuel consumption than you would get with the old engine.
As for other required parts, I have little knowledge of the engines in question but as a general rule you will need the entire loom & computer with the K10 - best if you can get either a front cut or the whole donor vehicle. Use as much engine related gear as you can from the donor. Possibly keep the radiator with any fan switch or temp sensor from the Carry.
You will need to do some research - measure up the F10 against the K10 check the gearbox differences (to work out options). You might find you need to make changes to the fuel tank EFI usually has a return line that the carb engine doesn't. Check the donor car over for differences, talk to the transport authority or an automotive engineer to find out what to expect from there.
I am hoping others might now shed better light on your request.
My MB's become but a rusty fantasy cocooned in a garage awaiting opportunity to metamorphose to 993cc, 5 speed micro monster. Should be done by now.. new Neighbour put a huge spanner in the works.
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Postby Brayden » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:21 am

1. The benefits are obvious - more power and better efficiency!
2. We don't have the K10A in Australia in RWD format, so I can't say whether it will bolt onto an F10A gearbox. The K10A WagonR uses a G13 series gearbox, so there's a chance it wont fit.
3. Yes you need to change the fuel pump and upgrade the fuel lines.
4. The K10A should have specific sensors for the ECU that won't work with your existing gauges. You will need to keep the old sensors installed too.
5. I would get rid of the crank driven fan and install an electric one.
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Postby j-six » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:41 am

@gadj - bro, luckily my contact sells the entire engine complete with the loom, ecu, and with the transmission. per a mechanic, (im not sure on this though...) he said that it would bolt on to the super carry, though some adjustments such as crossmember, engine mounts, and yoke to the propeller shaft would be replaced...hmmm...

@brayden - bro, thanks very much for the reply. need to ask your expertise a bit more regarding this conversion...basically aside from the fuel lines conversion, radiator fan, etc, what parts should i be needing to buy or replace so that i would be having the basic info on my tachmeter? (haha, i hope you'd give me a checklist on which should i buy aside from the engine for this upgrade) hehehe :)

as for the tachmeter, i was planning to buy this defi gauge and hook it up with the ecu of the k10a for a more complete display:
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thanks guys.
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Postby Brayden » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:14 am

If the engine comes complete with ECU and loom then the only other things you should need are a few relays, an EFI coil and ignitor module. You might need some new radiator hoses and a few other bits, but you'll work that out in the process of the conversion.
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Postby j-six » Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:33 pm

@brayden -

mate, let me get this straight (for the parts that i would be needing to upgrade):
1. convert fuel system to efi fuel line kit
2. efi coil (ps: brayden, this is different from the ignition coil of the sk410? should i get the exact efi coil used in the k10a?)
3. ignitor module
4. thermal electric radiator fan...
5. radiator hoses

is that all i got? hehehe :p

cheers!
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Postby Brayden » Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:54 pm

You will need whatever coil the K10A uses, or a universal Bosch equivalent.

You will find other things you need during the conversion that I haven't mentioned, but your current list will cover the basics.
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Postby Karu » Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:10 pm

Does the K10A lean on the correct angle? There is not much room under the seats.
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Postby j-six » Sat Jan 23, 2010 2:53 am

@brayden - thanks bro for that. i'll do some further research on more components needed.

i was just wondering, i checked out this site: http://extrudabody.com/TechInfo/what_you_need.html, and afaik, there is only 1 throttle body for the k10a, right? the site covers some basics required for an efi set-up also.

@karu - good question bro. i'll ask the seller of the engine (k10a) to give me some measures. per a mechanic friend, he told me that it would be a good fit under the seats. some major mods only would be the crossmembers and the yoke fitment to prop shaft.
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Postby Brayden » Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:40 am

If the K10A isn't coming from another van model, then you're going to need much more custom work.

The inlet manifold won't be suitable, and neither will the exhaust manifold. Depending on the head, it may also need modifying to keep the cams lubricated when the engine is put on an angle.

Have a read through this thread to see the process of installing an engine that isn't from another van. (G15B in this case)
http://www.tamon.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2744&start=0
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Postby j-six » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:04 am

@brayden - thanks bro. it would be a custom work for the intakes and the exhausts considering the angle the k10a would be in.

i was just wondering though if there was a F10a efi engine...there is! im not so sure then with this if it's true or not.

http://www.ecplaza.net/tradeleads/selle ... .html#none

someone in china rebuilt the f10a to an efi.
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Postby Karu » Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:15 pm

j-six wrote:I was just wondering though if there was a F10a efi engine...there is! i'm not so sure then with this if it's true or not.
.


You answered a question for me j-six. I was wondering whether there were EFI F10A's in the Philippines. I now have to turn my wondering to Vietnam.

Good luck with receiving a reply from the Chinese F10A manufacturers, we haven't had any success.

Hopefully the K10A oil pick-up can be modified to lean on an angle.

My F10A has done 275,000 kilometres and doesn't use any oil. If it can last forever (which I am guessing it will) without ever having a rebuild I will be somewhat happy. Somewhat meaning I would prefer an engine that revs less at the 100km speed limit and better fuel consumption at that speed. On the other hand the cost of installing a different engine would be far in excess of the cost of $100 to ensure it never needs a rebuild.

The only engine I have found that will fit and suit my needs is an engine you will no doubt find easy enough in the Philippines and that is a Subaru engine. The chassis rails are wide enough and there is enough room under the seat with plenty of room for access to work on it. I wouldn't mind doing an engineering course this year so I can make all the adapters and mounts, but unfortunately, here in Victoria you can only do courses like this if you are employed in the field.

Please keep us informed of your progress.
Last edited by Karu on Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Karu » Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:20 pm

As you can see j-six, with all of these Chinese web sites selling the F10A will require you to become a member and once you do in my experience you will be flooded with emails but never get the engine questions answered. But then again, it might be faster and cheaper for you to ring.
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Postby j-six » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:05 am

@karu- thanks bro. glad to be of help. now there are actually three possibilities, thanks to some ingenuity of my filipino mechanics here.

1st one of, is to convert the whole system to efi. the only problem i am seeing here would be getting the ecu, which is fairly a bit expensive and a bit more than the budget requires.

2nd one would be, to ask some chinese importers here because there is a increase of sellers of rebadged suzuki units (chana, lifan, etc). its possible to ask their help if they're selling the engines and the transmission as well.

3rd one would be to install a toyota 4k engine with lite ace transmission. my friend, now in australia, (which i dont have any communication for a long time), said that in davao, they used to drag race super carry's (wow, my dream!!! hehehe!) using toyota 4k engines...not so sure with this info though.

my goal however is to maintain super carry's 4 cyc set-up in efi within 1L of displacement and of course, a suzuki engine too, so there goes a bit of my pride than retrograding to F-series engines with efi turbo but however, has 3 cyl in it.

but you said that a boxer engine from a subaru would fit? hmm.
cheers!

will keep you guys updated. this is gonna take me a loong time...
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Postby j-six » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:11 am

taken from: hoedatwombat (the guy from youtube who converted his LJ50 to a k10 efi here at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiyO-clVO3s):

Hi, I have used the K10a from a front drive Wagon R and the gearbox from a Cappuchino. I had to fabricate mounts and run a pipe from the back to the front for the radiator, space out the starter motor to suit the engagement point, and sort through the car loom from the wagon R to only use the EFI wiring (big Job) then ran a surge tank with EFI pump. This would go great in a Super Carry!

Cheers Paul

now mates, my question is, 1st, what was the original engine of LJ50?
then, what is the gearbox of the cappuchino? :) now if i could source that out, then i would be very very happy to get a loan and start the conversion in no time! :P
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