Rogan's Alto Works Project

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Rogue_Works
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:16 pm
Location: Kempsey, NSW

bad weather and school have hampered my attempts of new photos, but there isnt much to see

i drove the beast around to my local workshop today origionally intending to find a knock in the front end

found it...

both front and rear engine mounts completely torn in half :oops: dunno exactly how I managed that, but I could have a few guesses haha, regardless, this will need resolving, probably at the same time as my clutch replacement... and engine bay painting!

I also removed my spark plugs today (NGK iridium 8) and found that instead of their usual red tinge they were fouled, most likely the result of a "safe" tune, after a quick clean the car now idles alot smoother, accelerates better, etc. although the plugs will probably re-foul over the next few days

does anyone have any opinions on solid mounts? i'm not too concerned about vibrations etc. just don't wan't this to happen again, not to mention scrap steel around the workplace is cheaper and easier to find than a pair of proper engine mounts :wink:
"c'mon guys, it's not that small"
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Billie
Posts: 2692
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:18 pm
Location: Brisbane

Use falcon mounts. There pretty much solid. Not using rubber mounts is stupid.
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Rogue_Works
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:16 pm
Location: Kempsey, NSW

thanks for the advice... i think, i'll look into the falcon mounts then. hopefully they wont be too thick or anything stupid like that.
"c'mon guys, it's not that small"
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Billie
Posts: 2692
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:18 pm
Location: Brisbane

I'm using a falcon mount, 35mm. Has a stud on each side :)
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Goofy[HSK]
Posts: 630
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:33 pm
Location: South Australia
Contact:

There is a suzuki sport mount kit, link in a bit

EDIT: http://page19.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/a ... x206549964
647500-2000M
(Think its the right one)

EDIT2: Suzuki sport is now monster sport :(
http://www.monster-shop.jp/index.php?ma ... anguage=en
'89 Alto Works RS/R - Awaiting: Paint, Windscreen, Compliance, Lottery
'89 Alto Works RS/R - Complied, Registrable, Awaiting Paint, Engine not running
www.hillsidekonnection.com
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Rogue_Works
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:16 pm
Location: Kempsey, NSW

hey guys, thanks for the info on the falcon mounts, I'll definitely be looking into them, cheers. As for the Suzuki Sport engine mount kit, I wish haha, but that did put me back onto the Monster Sport website, where I found... clutches! So, now I know there should be a clutch available when I'm ready, I can move on to searching for other bits and pieces.

PS: I though Suzuki Sport and Monster Sport were different companies, but just stocked a heap of each another's gear, oh well.

but on to the main topic of this post: boost response

today I was messing around with an old air horn tank I found laying around a workshop, I was keen to use it on another small project of mine but it was suggested by the tuner there that I make a "boost canister." The thought had crossed my mind ages ago but I hadn't even considered using this tank for that!

So, with that in mind, I removed the fitting for the capillary line to the horn, as well as the tyre valve style refilling valve on the tank. I left the pressure gauge on though, just for shits and giggles. After that, I replaced these fittings with brass barbed fittings so I could attach my waste gate actuator line (these were sealed with Teflon tape).

Just to go over the basic theory behind this, pressure in a system like this is more or less equal throughout this vacuum line. But, when we have a massive tank (relatively) in the middle of the line, it gives a lot more volume that has to be pressurised, so the rate of pressurisation due to boost changes, so the waste gate actuator pressure rises more slowly than it would with just a line going to it. Basically the canister has to fill up with boost before the boost can open the waste gate.

In a nut shell, with this tank installed, boost comes on sooner and harder, in fact boost now spikes to 11psi before settling down to 10psi, when before it would simply rise to 10 in its own time. Here is a table that can explain the outcome:
note: this graph is over time, not revs, because this is the time taken relative to revs, personally, i would've liked to have been able to log it over revs, but... microsquirt ecu
note: this graph is over time, not revs, because this is the time taken relative to revs, personally, i would've liked to have been able to log it over revs, but... microsquirt ecu
This is just my interpretation of how the car feels now. No scientific shit was done to get these results, just before and after drives.

As far as driveability is concerned, cruising along at light loads, I now sustain a vacuum of around 8in/Hg (i think, might be mm/Hg, but, I'll just continue with in/Hg), whereas before it was around 11in/Hg. This leads me to believe that the wastegate was being pushed open a bit under light loads - I don't know if that really makes sense or if I'm pissing in my own pocket over that, it's just what I noticed.

Another thing I noticed was that the "turbo spool" was noticeably louder, no doubt because of the turbo working harder off the bottom. The louder spooling noise dulled back down to normal at about 6000rpm - 6500rpm. One issue was that it no longer idled properly with the new canister in place. I resolved this by idling up at the throttle body.

Mounting was an issue, as it's very hard to find space in an engine bay such as this! Basically, I relocated my oil catch can and zip tied it to the firewall and shock tower. Then, I had intended to use the old catch can bracket as a bracket for the canister.

... I broke it.

So the end result utilises a few more zip ties than I had originally intended, but it's a work in progress. Proper mounting solutions will be employed... one day.

All in all it was an interesting exercise that has made driving my go-kart just that little bit more fun!

Oh, and photos, of course:
yes it's big, yes its red... yes, it's stock officer!
yes it's big, yes its red... yes, it's stock officer!
as i said, i left the gauge on it for shits and giggles, fyi, it goes up to 15kgf/m squared, or about 200psi - a bit optimistic for my application
as i said, i left the gauge on it for shits and giggles, fyi, it goes up to 15kgf/m squared, or about 200psi - a bit optimistic for my application
So yeah, that was my progress for another week.
"c'mon guys, it's not that small"
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Rogue_Works
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:16 pm
Location: Kempsey, NSW

One hell of a day today...

Lending a hand at the workshop next door today, the boss suggested we head in to town to grab a few bits and pieces. seeing as his bus was a mess of tangled wires and such, we decided to take the alto

Let the fun begin!

I hit the key, the engine started, then after less than 30sec idling, it dropped a cylinder, then another, promptly dying. the good part about this was that Graeme (the boss) was on hand to help me sort it out. it appeared that the injectors were shorting to ground and flooding it. the problem here was a burnt out injector driver, so, out with the ECU, back to the workshop where I replaced the MOSFET, and we ended up getting the engine running reasonably well, and, once the plugs had cleared, it was perfect, so off to town!

3 minutes into the 6 minute trip, I hit a small bump (crease across the whole road as it goes over a bridge), this was followed by a misfire, then another, and another. soon the car was undriveable, so, Graeme began working under the dash (through the glovebox actually - due to the mounting of my ECU) and was able to keep the car running. we parked at Big W and in the time it took to get back to the workshop, he had diagnosed the problem and I set about fixing it.

The problem was an amplifier circuit for the pickup in the dizzy, a transistor leg had broken off at a solder joint, so that had to be re-soldered. it was relatively straight forward - after i managed to peel enough silastic off from around the circuit to get at the joint!

But all in all, the system is better off now - the new injector driver has a slightly higher current rating, so it ought to be able to handle the load of the injectors a little better now.

Also, I've got to say, this is the smoothest the car has ever run - the massive boost canister it seems, smooths out spikes in pressure to the wastegate. And, another plus, is that under light load, partial throttle driving (in this case driving through the back yard to my car port) the engine is far more responsive - and it is running at less vacuum too (i.e. the turbo is efficiently working under partial throttle).

I guess all things considered, it was a positive outcome, and props to Graeme for taking the time out of his weekend to lend a hand!
"c'mon guys, it's not that small"
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Rogue_Works
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:16 pm
Location: Kempsey, NSW

First and foremost - I hope no one is getting pissed that this build thread is looking more like a blog at the moment, but I want to fill in the gaps between big things of note happening with the car so I don't feel as though I'm reviving an old thread every few months...

Anyway , this is a continuation from a post, two previous, about the boost canister project

Today I went for a decent drive (about 2 hours around town, along back roads and highways, real all round driving) and for the most part, the system worked flawlessly. I kept my eye on the boost gauge for alot of the drive, well really only when I was intentionally testing the system, and there were only two instances where something went wrong (probably a record for my car! :lol: ) first of all was the clutch adjusting bolt "self adjusted," giving very little clutch movement. this was fixed on the side of the road - and prevented from future occurences by a spare nut i had in the car.

the other problem was one instance of overboosting. cruising along the highway in a 50km/h zone while in 4th gear. there was a 100km/h zone ahead, so, of course, i put my foot into it, wanting to ride the boost wave again. watching the boost gauge though, i backed off as the dial shot past 10 psi, even so, it boosted up until about 15-16psi along with a lovely clutchy smell. i guess my reaction time just wasnt quick enough to catch it. it pinged twice as well.

and because i had so much fun making the last graph:
this is the same graph as in a post previous, but with the blue line representing what happened, seriously, I have never seen boost rise that quickly on a turbocharged car before!
this is the same graph as in a post previous, but with the blue line representing what happened, seriously, I have never seen boost rise that quickly on a turbocharged car before!
As a matter of fact, I thought that the only way the boost could've risen that fast was if the silicone hose from the canister to the waste gate had split (I have very little faith in these hoses, as I've seen too many of the cheaper ones split, just due to poor quality), but upon a quick once over of the engine bay at the supermarket car park, all was found to be ok, regardless, to be safe, I bypassed the canister and returned to the original setup.

perhaps an electronic boost controller would be best - despite the tank's excellent effect on the engine bay presentation!

despite all of that, I found that low down driveability has definitely improved! i used to have no real guts below 3000RPM, now, I wont say I have alot more, but i would say that the "gutless threshold" has moved down to perhaps 2500RPM, or there abouts.
"c'mon guys, it's not that small"
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nelpd96
Posts: 316
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:13 pm
Location: Canberra

Mate the tanks work quite well but that one is bloody big for such a little engine. In some cases an extra meter or two of hose wrapped around can give you what you need. That canister looks to be over a 1 lt in capacity. The last time I did something like that on a turbo charade some 15 years ago I ended up using something around the 350ml mark and that was pretty good on a bigger engine.

Sounds like you are having fun though. The other thing that you can use is a pressure regulator or a Dawes valve that will only let the boost air through once it gets to a certain pressure.

Cheers
Paul
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Rogue_Works
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:16 pm
Location: Kempsey, NSW

Hey guys and girls!

It's been an age since my last update and I apologise for that (in case anyone was following this project).

Firstly though, thanks nelpd96 for the advice on the valve, but I ended up going another route with a bleeder valve that actually works (yes, I was dubious at first, but something out there does work better than a turbosmart boost tee!).

Since the last update a fair bit has happened, I've managed to clock up over 2,500 km since i rebuilt the engine (due for an oil change in 500 km I suppose), broken and fixed many a thing on the car, have started work on the interior (no pics yet) and wound the boost up from 10psi to 16psi... then back to 14psi after a few trips to the petrol station. :oops:

Also since my last update, I earned my P's, hence I've hardly been home long enough to update anything (let alone really work on the beast!).

But here are the latest pics of it:
Keep in mind that i washed it the day before these photos were taken, then again, a 10km stretch of dirt road will do that.
Keep in mind that i washed it the day before these photos were taken, then again, a 10km stretch of dirt road will do that.
You should've seen the car that was behind me down the dirt road!
You should've seen the car that was behind me down the dirt road!
PLEASE NOTE: that the "monster energy drink" sticker is a running joke with a group of friends. after bragging about how I had yet to be pulled over, the boys thought it would be a good idea to "help me along" buy attracting just a bit more attention... hasn't worked yet (touch wood).

The car is still running OK... just ok. There is a bit of a knock in the engine, so I'm thinking I may have starved the bottom end of oil at one point (high revs and hard cornering), or overheated the oil, but either way, the sump is coming off in a few weeks, well, at least the sump.

Either way, it still revs fine, still makes power and doesn't get hot (coolant temp. that is).
"c'mon guys, it's not that small"
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Goofy[HSK]
Posts: 630
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:33 pm
Location: South Australia
Contact:

More pics of dash please, how does it fit with the car?
'89 Alto Works RS/R - Awaiting: Paint, Windscreen, Compliance, Lottery
'89 Alto Works RS/R - Complied, Registrable, Awaiting Paint, Engine not running
www.hillsidekonnection.com
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Rogue_Works
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:16 pm
Location: Kempsey, NSW

if you are considering doing the dash swap, please think long and hard about it unless you have to for the gauges and a k6a swap! the dash lines up with the mounting holes along the firewall perfectly, and the ones down by the doors. the windscreen curve is the same, but there is a gap between the dash and the pillar where the door hinges bolt on that you can fit a hand through, this gently closes up to nothing at the lower bolting point for the dash - i'll upload photos asap to show you.

in the mean time...
IMG_0518.JPG
look like fun? a bolt rattled out of the drum assembly some how, allowing the shoes to rotate around a little, enabling one of the wheel cylinder pistons to pop halfway out, before the spring on the shoes pushed it back in and tore a chunk out of the rubber. brake fluid everywhere + driving through town with next to no brakes (an inch of pedal travel to the firewall and no hope in hell of locking even one wheel in the wet on clay).

at least it gave me a reason to inspect, clean and maintain the brakes
"c'mon guys, it's not that small"
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Rogue_Works
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:16 pm
Location: Kempsey, NSW

As requested by goofy - pics of the dash:
this is what i meant by it tapering to nothing - not really a good look
this is what i meant by it tapering to nothing - not really a good look
reasonably similar story on the passenger side too
reasonably similar story on the passenger side too
the dashboard hits the upper steering column trim piece, and the trim that's sort of like a "gauge cluster bezel" hits the hazard light switch, vibrating it down over time and stopping the blinkers from working. this might be able to be solved by spacing the bottom of the dash out from the firewall
the dashboard hits the upper steering column trim piece, and the trim that's sort of like a "gauge cluster bezel" hits the hazard light switch, vibrating it down over time and stopping the blinkers from working. this might be able to be solved by spacing the bottom of the dash out from the firewall
the standard centre console (i believe) appears to fit reasonably well with the later model dash. the dash can move in and out a bit but an alloy strap could fix that easily
the standard centre console (i believe) appears to fit reasonably well with the later model dash. the dash can move in and out a bit but an alloy strap could fix that easily
"c'mon guys, it's not that small"
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Rogue_Works
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:16 pm
Location: Kempsey, NSW

After the "unfortunate" writing off of my mothers car, I realised the need to relocate some of her uninsured automotive accessories:

pimp spec. alto works...
the contrast between the second hand black sheepskins and the red rug over the back seat really set the tone for the interior...
the contrast between the second hand black sheepskins and the red rug over the back seat really set the tone for the interior...
... actually, that about the rugs setting the tone? not entirely true - thanks to the overnight stereo liberation program I'm beginning to understand what people mean when they say "small cars are built for big sound"
... actually, that about the rugs setting the tone? not entirely true - thanks to the overnight stereo liberation program I'm beginning to understand what people mean when they say "small cars are built for big sound"
so long story short:
4" 2 way pioneers in the front (reasonably thrashed but half decent quality)
6x9" 3 way pioneers in the rear (horrible - overly thrashed, one has the cone separating from the edge as well as a torn tweeter)
12" fusion sub in sealed enclosure - not too bad for what it is
amp... I have no idea as to the brand or specs, but it seems to run the sub ok.
head unit - clarion DXZ666MP - it's alright, the best feature is the colour customisation on the backlighting, matched the gauges perfectly, pride level +10

to be honest i am an almost complete novice to car stereos, before this, I'd only ever installed 4 head units, one pair of door speakers and a sub and amp.

but the upshot is that, for about $50 and a few hours work, I finally have a stereo (even if I have to return the seat covers for mum's next car).

EDIT: just to clarify, the "overnight stereo liberation program" was unleashed only on my mum's totalled car, didn;t want to sound like a thief :oops:
"c'mon guys, it's not that small"
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Rogue_Works
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:16 pm
Location: Kempsey, NSW

Jeez, almost 2 months since the last update to the build thread... tisk tisk, well a little bit has gone down since the last lot of photos, e.g.
IMG_0876.JPG
My father came back over from NZ again for a short time and, as usual, a little progress was made on the rig. Although not an original colour scheme, nor the greatest paint job, it is alot better than the previous paint (which was cracked and chipped to the sh*thouse).
I can't believe I was considering painting the wheels flat black along with the rest of the car!
I can't believe I was considering painting the wheels flat black along with the rest of the car!
The paint used was an industrial spec flat black, I believe called "LIC40" supposedly really hard wearing and easily maintained, even without a clear. Although I have yet to wash it for the first time so we shall see about that.

The wheels were also painted in an industrial paint by the same company, and done so in that colour for the sake of being different. No doubt they will be a bitch to keep clean now though.
Although it's a bit of a shame that the wings weren't able to be repaired and painted, it's something I can live with for now.
Although it's a bit of a shame that the wings weren't able to be repaired and painted, it's something I can live with for now.
Also, another slight improvement has been a re-vamp of the car's audio system. I had a dvd player in the dash connected up to a PS2 under the passenger seat, but it really didn't do what I wanted, so I uninstalled it, bought a new "fusion" head unit along with matching 4" speakers for the dash and 6" speakers for the rear and a pair of second hand kenwood subs in an enclosure with an amp. I dont have any photos of this setup yet as its not finished and I'm unhappy with a few things (namely the front and rear speakers!).

Changed the oil 2 days ago too and it wasnt too bad for a first oil change since rebuilding the engine, 12,000 kms ago :snigger: . No chunks of metal or sludge in the drain pan, which isn't a bad effort when using REPCO brand oil to run it in with.
"c'mon guys, it's not that small"
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