Found it.
go to FASTLANE.COM.AU search for electronic ignition by memebrs name johnperth in the Holden area.
Matiz 5 speed in Mightyboy
Mowog - I checked out that forum. Didn't gain anything I didn't already know. A couple of the respondants had half an idea and the other half was unsubstantiated. The major problem is mechanical methinks - making a new sensor to fit on the existing dissy, remember, you don't need the rotor cap any more! I'll have to pay a visit to my local wrecker and get a working DFI ignition module - VN-VP stuff is dime a dozen these days, VS is similar but it has a camshaft sensor to confuse the issue.
Then comes the issue of advance - you could keep the mech and vac advance, but the better idea is to have full electronic control as it is far more precise therefore you can run advance closer to the edge of pinging without worrying about drift due to points wear.
For those people who have point ignition, the upgrade to electronic ignition generally makes the engine start and run better and it has a fatter spark. You won't unleash heaps of horse power, but you won't need to worry about adjusting and replacing points. Using the Commodore DFI module, again won't give you heaps of horsepower (it might give you slightly better economy) is really just a geek mod - technically nice but most likely overkill!
Then comes the issue of advance - you could keep the mech and vac advance, but the better idea is to have full electronic control as it is far more precise therefore you can run advance closer to the edge of pinging without worrying about drift due to points wear.
For those people who have point ignition, the upgrade to electronic ignition generally makes the engine start and run better and it has a fatter spark. You won't unleash heaps of horse power, but you won't need to worry about adjusting and replacing points. Using the Commodore DFI module, again won't give you heaps of horsepower (it might give you slightly better economy) is really just a geek mod - technically nice but most likely overkill!
I'm back from QLD and back into the mightyboy. I just had a trip to the local wreckers and got myself a clutch pedal and shaft from a hatch (my MB was originally an auto) - the installation of the clutch pedal was easier than I had thought. The Matiz clutch cable seems to mount the same as the MB so this is one less issue.
Whilst at the wreckers, I got a DFI module from a VP commodore. I can say conclusively that you can earth one side of the coil so you have only one spark plug per coil. I'm busy looking into putting this onto the MB. If I'm successful, I'll post the info.
I'm still pondering the water piping problems - I also got the Matiz hoses and flange from the wreckers.
Its all good fun!
Whilst at the wreckers, I got a DFI module from a VP commodore. I can say conclusively that you can earth one side of the coil so you have only one spark plug per coil. I'm busy looking into putting this onto the MB. If I'm successful, I'll post the info.
I'm still pondering the water piping problems - I also got the Matiz hoses and flange from the wreckers.
Its all good fun!
Wow, very cool about the peddle & cable. I'm keeping an eye on this, it's rather interesting. Esp about the coil packs. Interesting about earthing one side of the coils. I know you can check a spark plug by pulling it out & earthing it to watch the spark jump the gap, but i don't know if i'd like to be perminatly earthing such a high voltage.
Could it cause issues with other electrical systems long term?
Cheers
ToranaGuy
Could it cause issues with other electrical systems long term?
Cheers
ToranaGuy
It's update time MB Parts list! send part info to toranaguy74@optusnet.com.au|
Toranaguy, in the VN.... engines, the ignition system fires two plugs at once. One cylinder is actually firing whereas the other is exhaust. This is also called 'wasted spark' as the spark on the cylinder that is exhausting does nothing. The overall idea is to get rid of the distributor and have the least number of ignition coils as possible. motorbikes have done this for some time. Since the Mightyboy has only three cylinders, we need to do something with the spare plug leads on the ignition coils. As such, we're not shorting out the high voltage to earth, but removing the path it would normally take through the extra spark plug. The remaining spark plugs should get twice the kick.
There's easier ways to put electronic ignition on a Mightyboy, but the challenge is there to have a distributor-less ignition system for the Mightyboy for not big dollars. I picked up the module at the local wreckers for $39.
time for some more research..............
There's easier ways to put electronic ignition on a Mightyboy, but the challenge is there to have a distributor-less ignition system for the Mightyboy for not big dollars. I picked up the module at the local wreckers for $39.
time for some more research..............
Interesting.Kartman wrote:Toranaguy, in the VN.... engines, the ignition system fires two plugs at once. One cylinder is actually firing whereas the other is exhaust. This is also called 'wasted spark' as the spark on the cylinder that is exhausting does nothing. The overall idea is to get rid of the distributor and have the least number of ignition coils as possible. motorbikes have done this for some time. Since the Mightyboy has only three cylinders, we need to do something with the spare plug leads on the ignition coils. As such, we're not shorting out the high voltage to earth, but removing the path it would normally take through the extra spark plug. The remaining spark plugs should get twice the kick.
Does it fire 2 plugs at one because the ecu says to or because the coil is 3 coils and both " poles " of each coil in the pack fire when that coil fires?
Cheers
ToranaGuy
It's update time MB Parts list! send part info to toranaguy74@optusnet.com.au|
There are three separate coils - you can replace one if it fails. Put simply - it has to fire both spark plugs - the ECU has no say in this. Hopefully my following description explains all.
In the usual ignition system, you have one ignition coil and the distributor that selects what plug is going to fire. The points when closed, charge the ignition coil by creating a magnetic field. When the points open, the current can no longer be maintained by the coil and the voltage rises rapidly causing a spark. some of this energy is wasted by causing a spark on the points side - the condeser is there to stop that happening. Anyway, one side of the ignition coil finds it way to the chassis (0V,common,earth..whatever you want to call it) and the other finds its way to the spark plug.
The DFI system removes the need for a distributor thus saving some loss that occurs here. So for a 6 cyclinder engine you would think you need 6 coils - but in 2,4,5,8,12 cylinder engines you have one cylinder firing and another on exhaust so you can fire two cylinders at once (even though one of them is exhausting-thereby doing nothing) thus you can halve the number of ignition coils. This gives us the term 'wasted spark' as one spark is effectively wasted. Also this means that each cylinder is fired every revolution rather than every second revolution (for a 4 stroke engine).
We can't put two spark plugs in parallel as the one with the shortest path would fire and the other would do nothing, so the ignition coil in the DFI unit is 'floating' - one end of it is not connected to the chassis, each end of the coil is connected to a spark plug. Therefore the voltage has to be enough to fire both plugs or none of them fire. So for Mightyboy application we have only three spark plugs, so to complete the circuit for the DFI coils, one side of these are connected to chassis.
I have one of these modules set up on my bench. These kick out a mighty spark and will create a healthy spark between the coil terminals (around 1inch) at 6000rpm. I've run one coil at 18000rpm and the spark isn't quite as healthy but neverthess enough to fire a plug. So be warned, these things will hurt and maybe injure or kill you. I haven't tested their effectiveness on my fingers yet. The same goes for just about any electronic ignition - they are substantially better than the old points ignition.
If you want an electronic ignition cheap - try grafting the innards out of a ford ea/eb distributor and the ignition coil into the MB dissy. You just chop half the pickup vanes off for three cylinders. Job done.
Most ignition modules do not need a ECU in order to function. The ECU gets its timing signals from the ignition module and applies the advance value and sends it back to the ignition module. If the ECU doesn't do this, the ignition module just uses the timing as set by the mechanical alignment of the sensor (tends to be around 10degrees btdc). If you put this in a standard dissy, you still have the mech and vac advance doing its job.
In the usual ignition system, you have one ignition coil and the distributor that selects what plug is going to fire. The points when closed, charge the ignition coil by creating a magnetic field. When the points open, the current can no longer be maintained by the coil and the voltage rises rapidly causing a spark. some of this energy is wasted by causing a spark on the points side - the condeser is there to stop that happening. Anyway, one side of the ignition coil finds it way to the chassis (0V,common,earth..whatever you want to call it) and the other finds its way to the spark plug.
The DFI system removes the need for a distributor thus saving some loss that occurs here. So for a 6 cyclinder engine you would think you need 6 coils - but in 2,4,5,8,12 cylinder engines you have one cylinder firing and another on exhaust so you can fire two cylinders at once (even though one of them is exhausting-thereby doing nothing) thus you can halve the number of ignition coils. This gives us the term 'wasted spark' as one spark is effectively wasted. Also this means that each cylinder is fired every revolution rather than every second revolution (for a 4 stroke engine).
We can't put two spark plugs in parallel as the one with the shortest path would fire and the other would do nothing, so the ignition coil in the DFI unit is 'floating' - one end of it is not connected to the chassis, each end of the coil is connected to a spark plug. Therefore the voltage has to be enough to fire both plugs or none of them fire. So for Mightyboy application we have only three spark plugs, so to complete the circuit for the DFI coils, one side of these are connected to chassis.
I have one of these modules set up on my bench. These kick out a mighty spark and will create a healthy spark between the coil terminals (around 1inch) at 6000rpm. I've run one coil at 18000rpm and the spark isn't quite as healthy but neverthess enough to fire a plug. So be warned, these things will hurt and maybe injure or kill you. I haven't tested their effectiveness on my fingers yet. The same goes for just about any electronic ignition - they are substantially better than the old points ignition.
If you want an electronic ignition cheap - try grafting the innards out of a ford ea/eb distributor and the ignition coil into the MB dissy. You just chop half the pickup vanes off for three cylinders. Job done.
Most ignition modules do not need a ECU in order to function. The ECU gets its timing signals from the ignition module and applies the advance value and sends it back to the ignition module. If the ECU doesn't do this, the ignition module just uses the timing as set by the mechanical alignment of the sensor (tends to be around 10degrees btdc). If you put this in a standard dissy, you still have the mech and vac advance doing its job.
Very informative! Car electrics isn't something i know much about, still learning when it comes to electrics. Sounds like those VN coil packs are pretty grunty! Throwing a spark across a 1" gap. Far out!
I originally upgraded my torana to a 40k volt coil, up from the 10 or 15k it was stock. I had a broken lead and got one hellova shock out of it, i felt my heart miss a beat! I'd hate to try anything more powerfull!
Interesting thought about gutting the EA-D dizzy to retro fit to the mb for electric ignition. I've got an almost dead eb 6cyl dizzy around, not to mention a couple of vh-k electric dizzies as well. I'm getting a VK electric regraphed to suit my turbo 6cyl 173ci red motor in my torana, and have a few spares left over. I wonder if the smaller bits from the commy would be easier to fit to the mb dizzy? Those dizzies don't req an ecu for anything.
You have me thinking now! Damn, another item on the " would love to do list ". rofl.
Cheers
ToranaGuy
I originally upgraded my torana to a 40k volt coil, up from the 10 or 15k it was stock. I had a broken lead and got one hellova shock out of it, i felt my heart miss a beat! I'd hate to try anything more powerfull!
Interesting thought about gutting the EA-D dizzy to retro fit to the mb for electric ignition. I've got an almost dead eb 6cyl dizzy around, not to mention a couple of vh-k electric dizzies as well. I'm getting a VK electric regraphed to suit my turbo 6cyl 173ci red motor in my torana, and have a few spares left over. I wonder if the smaller bits from the commy would be easier to fit to the mb dizzy? Those dizzies don't req an ecu for anything.
You have me thinking now! Damn, another item on the " would love to do list ". rofl.
Cheers
ToranaGuy
It's update time MB Parts list! send part info to toranaguy74@optusnet.com.au|
For an electronic ignition swap onto an MB without an ECU I would recommend looking at the G10A Swift motor. Already 3 cylinder and I have been told that the distributor will drop straight into an F5/F8 motor. 
F8B EFI turbo - Three pots and a snail.
I've just finished making new mounting brackets for the matiz gearbox. Took me three days by the time I'd made a wooden jig to get the mounting points of the original transmission and figured the easiest way to fabricate them. I can say it takes a bit of energy to cut 6mm plate with a hacksaw! All done with a hacksaw, stick welder and some plate & RHS.
The matiz clutch cable mates up to the MB clutch pedal, so thats one less problem. Next on the list of problems is mounting the Matiz shifter and making a hole big enough in the firewall for the two cables. Hopefully they'll route easily and have enough length.
Then I've got the drive shafts to contend with and water hose routing.
One appreciates the skill of the engineers that design cars for a job after doing this sort of stuff!
The matiz clutch cable mates up to the MB clutch pedal, so thats one less problem. Next on the list of problems is mounting the Matiz shifter and making a hole big enough in the firewall for the two cables. Hopefully they'll route easily and have enough length.
Then I've got the drive shafts to contend with and water hose routing.
One appreciates the skill of the engineers that design cars for a job after doing this sort of stuff!
No movement! Still pondering the driveshafts. I'm been too lazy and its been too hot to climb under the MB to fit up the driveshafts andto figure out what I need to do. If the std driveshafts are the correct length, I should be able to ream out the tripod end splines of the Matiz gearbox cv joint. Failing that, it will be cut & weld.
On the ignition front I came across a hall effect rotation sensor that looks like it will act as an absolute position sensor for the dissy. Apart from that, I've got a set of coils that make nice sparks on my desk. Its waiting for the engine/gb installation to be completed!
Fortunately/unfortunately girlfriend will be having a baby in the next couple of weeks. So the mightyboy will lay dormant for a bit of time methinks
On the ignition front I came across a hall effect rotation sensor that looks like it will act as an absolute position sensor for the dissy. Apart from that, I've got a set of coils that make nice sparks on my desk. Its waiting for the engine/gb installation to be completed!
Fortunately/unfortunately girlfriend will be having a baby in the next couple of weeks. So the mightyboy will lay dormant for a bit of time methinks
Is been like that for me, only just got my a into gear today and started hauling out the engine/box to exchange the boxes after the 2nd gear jumping out became the 2nd and 4th gear gear falling out. Haven't driven the mb anywhere for about a month while I overcome sheer laziness. While I have another car to drive I tend to forget the one that needs work, now the family car (subaru, or subaaahroo for kiwis) has developed exxon valdez complex so have to replace the oil pump seals in that so have to get the mb mobile first, hence the effort. And my daughter's 93 has a bit of a rattle to go with the clutch shudder so that will have to be fixed before the gearbox or something expires. All the good things happen at once.
Hatchman/Brayden I asked about the difference in the G10 and F5/8 dissies, what is the word on that? seeing as you boldly stated they would change over.
Hatchman/Brayden I asked about the difference in the G10 and F5/8 dissies, what is the word on that? seeing as you boldly stated they would change over.